I just finished reading my late grandmother Thelma Brown’s (1900-1993)copy of The Chinese Ginger Jars and really enjoyed it. My mother inherited it when Grandma passed away. Grandma Brown was a one-room-school house teacher near Yuma, Colorado for a few years prior to marrying my rancher-grandfather. Grandma was an avid reader and finally had more time to read when they retired and moved into town in 1960. I believe she received her copy of your grandmother’s book via a book club she belonged to. It was the sort of book Grandma would have loved, since she was a devout Christian, church lady and armchair traveler all of her life.

My mother, Waunita Herron, also a devout Christian, church lady and armchair traveler, brought the book out to our home town of Battle Ground, Washington. She recently loaned it to me for my spring break reading. I’m a 57 year old elementary school teacher. Anyhow, I really enjoyed the book and imagine that someday it will be mine to keep as a momento from my mother and grandmother.

Lorena Herron

I do not believe there have been a lot of forced departures due to agnosticism or atheism. I have no statistics on this, but it is just a general impression.

I do not believe you will successfully change the Boy Scouts within the system. They were so adamant about not changing their policy that they took it to the Supreme Court, which ruled in their favor. (Google “James Dale”.) They’ve now had the highest court in the land affirm their right to have that policy.

As for the quote you took from the Scoutmaster, I think it’s a false analogy. It is extremely expensive and extremely difficult to renounce your citizenship and move to another country. If the choice is made to do so, it is comparatively very simple to discontinue supporting the Boy Scouts of America. Further, and VERY significantly, as a member of a democratic country, you have the power to alter the positions of the governing body by election, protest, or other means. As a Scout or Scouter, you do not have the power to alter the positions of the governing body. So, although his comparison sounds very nice to the ear (it’s a nice turn of phrase), I don’t think it’s at all valid.

I wish it was a simple as Sandra makes it sound - but, it really isn’t.

Number one, it’s not just MY decision. It’s my husband’s and my son’s too…and they both are VERY involved in scouting and love it. And, for the record we DO support it fully. We are more involved than many of the other parents.. and are constantly doing something scout related. We do it, for the kids.. because we do see them benefitting from it… from SCOUTING activities and in general, that is… and not the “duty to god” part.

My husband doesn’t see this as an issue… and right now…. I guess it’s not.. I worry about it potentially being one down the road. “Duty to God” is pretty vague and I do not think we are breaking any “scout laws”. But, that is probably a matter of opinion on many levels - and it only takes one person to have a really strong opinion that we are NOT in compliance or something - and that is what concerns me I really DON’T think it should be anyone’s business or anyone’s concern.. but, that is MY opionion.

Number two - there really aren’t any other organizations in our area that even come close to comparing to what scouts offer… and since my son’s been in it for a few years now… he naturally wants to be with his friends… and why SHOULDN’T he be? Of course that is a big part of why he likes scouting. Starting over someplace else wouldn’t be the same at all.

Of course children adjust and learn from us… that is the part I worry about… I don’t want him learning from BSA that it’s okay to discriminate against people based on things that should be none of our business and irrelevent to us - like their personal sexual preference or their religious beliefs. I teach him NOT to judge people on these things, and that people believe different things and that is okay. So, supporting an organization that does teach discrimination based on these things IS a concern of mine.

I’d rather find a way to work in the system, or change it - than to dessert something that I feel is MOSTLY a great organization… I’m just not sure how to do that.

I read on another blog where a Scoutmaster posted on this topic too… and he wrote:

“This perplexing situation has led me to reconsider my involvement with such an organization. I concluded that I would no more leave scouting over the current administration of the BSA than I would renounce my U.S. citizenship because I disagree with the current administration of the government.”

from http://scoutmaster.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/11/boys_universall.html

That made sense to me. I suppose I’ll have to talk more to my husband regarding this, research some more and hope for the best.

The national Scouting leadership does believe in these policies and does insist on their enforcement. However, Scouting’s leadership structure has many levels (even to a slightly silly degree, methinks). There are leadership positions not only in troops but in councils, districts, and so on. And not everyone in Scouting leadership positions agree with the policies the national leadership has set.

Because of this, although the national leadership can mandate enforcement of their policies, it really ends up being on a local level as to whether it’s handled according to official policies, or if it’s just kind of looked the other way. And, a lot of councils and troops have gone even one step further and openly defied the policies excluding gays (see this page under “Individual BSA Groups Opposing Anti-Gay Policy”), so some local leaderships actively defy the national leadership, instead of only “looking the other way.”

If your son develops an atheist or agnostic viewpoint, my own suggestion would be: I would explain to him the conflict, and ask him what he’d like to do. While emphasizing that an atheist or agnostic viewpoint is not something should need to be swept under the rug, I’d explain to him that openly expressing atheism or agnosticism during Scouting events may — depending on the troop and council leadership — result in a policy conflict that could, if several things went wrong, result in him needing to leave Scouting.

There is a secondary concern, in that by paying troop dues, camping fees, assisting in Boy Scout fundraisers, etc., you are assisting in financing the organization. Granted, it goes into the coffers of the troop and council first, so only a percentage of what you give ends up with the national leadership. But it does result in your own, personal money financing a group that adamantly defends and maintains these policies, and although it may be, for all I know, only $5-10 a year, that has a cumulative effect when multiplied by the hundreds of thousands of active Scouts. That is something you have to come to terms with.

Also, you say that you will not make your son say he believes something just to move up. Again, at the moment, if he believes in God, there isn’t a problem. But a requirement of each Scouting rank is to “[d]emonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life,” and, again, Scouting defines certain elements within the Oath and Law as requiring that a Scout not be gay, atheist, or agnostic. So you could — very nitpickingly and technically — make the argument that if he is saying he is living the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life, he would be saying he believed something which he didn’t (if he does indeed become agnostic or atheist) just to move up, each time he initials that requirement.

And, Sandra, thank you for offering that link. I had completely forgotten about the Boys’ and Girls’ Club of America, and that’s a very good alternative to point her towards.

My son is finishing up cub scouts, preparing to go into boy scouts. My husband and I are not leaders, but have become very active with the den events planning and such. My son, and my husband and I have made a lot of friends. My son loves scouting.

My dilema? We are not religious people. Especially me. My husband is catholic… but, hasn’t practiced it in years. I was brought up very VERY religious - but, really did a 180 and consider myself agnostic for years. I taught my son the basic bible stories, but we don’t go to church, and I never told him what he should believe for sure about God. We also discussed other religions, and Greek mythology, etc. I told him many people believe many different things - and that’s ok. I figured, he could make up his own mind as he gets older. For now, he does believe in God - but, he has a very general opinion (ex. God is good).

When my son joined scouts, he was recruited thru public school… and we never thought of it as a religious thing. Yes, I know it says “duty to god”… but, we were never told we needed to be religious or anything. To us, it was like pledging allegiance to the flag, under God… A general thing… not specific. Religion was never an issue.

Over the last few years, I’ve become more agnostic… probably leaning towards atheist. I don’t voice this to too many people - especially not the scout parents. We just don’t talk religion. My husband doesn’t say much one way or the other. We have just sort of not voiced our relgious opinions so far in scouts at all… but, I worry it will come up. And, I do NOT agree with the BSA opinions of what a “moral” person is, or that atheist, agnostic, or gay people should be considered “unmoral” and not allowed into BSA. It’s ridiculous.

However, my husband doesn’t want to pull our son out… and either do I. Our son has a lot of friends in there, and would really miss it. They do a lof of fun, and GOOD stuff. Our son is as moral as they come… always wanting to help others and do the “right” thing.

My husband doesn’t think the religion (or lack of) is a big deal… and he thinks I’m MAKING it a big deal when I’ve voiced my concerns to him?? I am happy to not bring up religion or make this an issue - but, I worry that sooner or later this will be an issue and our son will be kicked out and we will be shunned. ?? I will not lie if asked what I believe… and I will not make my son say he believes something or do something he’s not comfortable doing either just to get a badge, or move up, or stay in scouts. So far, we haven’t had to. But, will this wind up being an issue? If so, when? How will it play out??? I don’t care about my husband or I, but, I don’t want to see my son hurt. I’m so torn… I wish the BSA would just CHANGE their stupid policies!

I would never even talk about this openly for fear that some holy roller do gooder would immediately track my ass down and get us kicked out asap. Sad but true… How wrong is that???

I wish more Eagle Scouts would write letters like yours!

The reason I didn’t renounce my badge is because my own personal opinion is that it’s not the right thematic message. The Eagle Award is the result of the work I accomplished as a teenager; no matter what disagreements I have with how Scouting conducts its business, the Eagle Award is a representation of the work I accomplished, an award I earned, and I don’t feel that the work which resulted in that badge was morally tarnished, homophobic, etc. So renouncing it, to me, isn’t the message I want to send.

The reason I chose the NESA was because they sent me a membership renewal notice, and that notice prompted this letter. I decided I wouldn’t feel comfortable silently not renewing, and enclosed my reasons why.

I found this post while planning a letter of this kind on my own. Where did you find so many quotes and other pieces of information? I think I am going to take a different tack and send in my badge and renounce it, but I’m only beginning to formulate my letter.

I was thinking of sending mine into the chief of scouting, rather than the NESA. Any reason you chose the NESA?

I really appreciate all that I learned in scouting (I got 120+ merit badges), but I just can’t be part of an organization that has these discriminations. What really amazes me is that they don’t allow agnostics. That’s just silly, since pretty much everybody is an agnostic: Very few people really believe 100% with no doubts in their mind that there is (not) a God, and to do so is irrational. For the BSA to have such a requirement is just silly.

The above is a very useful hack until such time as Remember the Milk implements a “hide until” feature, when and if they do.

I don’t use the time estimate field at all, and I daresay it’s not the most commonly used field. But, yes, this “hide until” hack eliminates that functionality. If you want to be able to hide something, until RTM builds it in, you have to eliminate something; there’s not currently “room” for it otherwise.

You feel gays aren’t morally straight. I explained throughout my blog entry why I disagree. It’s a matter of opinion, not fact. And you didn’t even bother to try to support your opinion; you just expect people to support your belief that “morally straight” is your morals. Feel free to explain your belief; otherwise, if this was just a hit-and-run, then you’re a troll.

Achieved Eagle 1983 at age 14.

Heather, I’m so very sorry about your son. The special was pretty detailed about the problems people with Williams Syndrome encounter, so I know it’s not a bed of roses. I suppose what interested me was that a syndrome like this could actually provide a person with emotional perception higher than the average person — a benefit, in other words. Of course, it’s got an extremely large number of drawbacks that outweigh that, but I had never heard of a syndrome that resulted in an ability being higher than the average human being.

Thank you for your reply, Sandra. Again, I find issue with many of your statements.

I disagree with you that Scouters will, simply by human nature, demonstrate their sexual orientation to young Scouts. It simply isn’t true, and I can say that from personal experience. As a teenage Scout, I interacted with many adult Scout volunteers, over two states — probably, in total, spread across the troops I belonged to, I probably interacted with about 30 of them. I found out years later that one of the volunteers I had interacted with was homosexual. I would not have known had I not been told; he in no way demonstrated either heterosexuality or homosexuality to me while he was a volunteer. The question of his sexuality — either hetero- or homo- — simply never came up — and that’s precisely the way a Scouter’s sexuality should be addressed: it shouldn’t.

You then go on to ask rhetorically whether parents would want to send their children to a camp that supports Scouters of homosexual orientation, and then proceed to answer your own question in the negative. That is just a way of stating an opinion: it can be done with any statement. “Can any sane person believe that the sky is not green? I think not.” Furthermore, there is a difference between acceptance and recommendation. An example is the United Church of Christ, which welcomes people of any sexual orientation into its congregation. By accepting gays, is the UCC specifically stating that all congregants should be gay? No. They are saying that they are not here to advocate a congregant’s sexuality, but to accept all who wish to come to their church. Likewise, a theoretical Scouting program that would accept gay Scouts or gay Scouters would not be stating to Scouts that they must be gay; it would be stating that they accept Scouts and Scouters no matter what their sexual orientation. And the question of Scouting’s nonacceptance of agnostics, atheists, and homosexuals has made a difference in some households as to whether they will send their Scouts there — but in the opposite way you suggest it would. Many parents have chosen not to allow their sons to participate in a program that believes it is proper to discriminate against people.

Yes, Jesus did state that sin shouldn’t be continued — in John 8:11. However, the words he specifically says are, in the NIV:

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Ironic that you would quote the “sin no more” statement when it’s from the very passage that supports noncondemnation. And, yes, I know about the moneychangers and the Pharisees; I’m the one who just referred to them. He tossed the moneychangers out of the temple — Jesus was deeply offended by the mixing of commerce and religion. And he often taught against the Pharisees — Jesus very much often taught against the common wisdom of the day. These, I think, support my position and not yours.

You then went on to copy and pasted a huge chunk of Wikipedia’s religion in Scouting article. It’s the very one I quoted to you, and the material you quoted completely supports the position I’m making — that Scouting accepts all religions and is not solely Christian. Baden-Powell’s “writings and speeches allowed for all religions.” The World Organization of the Scout Movement defines religion only as “adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom,” thus specifically including pantheistic religions and those who do not have a God in them. If you pasted that material because you thought that I was making the argument that Scouting was inherently non-religious already, I was never making that argument. I was making an argument that it was not a Christian organization and its Law and Oath were not based on Biblical sources — which it wasn’t.

As for the huge quote from troop97.net, I read through the whole thing, and it doesn’t address at all what we’re talking about — religion or homosexuality. Please, if you’re going to continue trying to construct an argument, please selectively quote relevant sentences or paragraphs, and don’t just copy and paste webpages into the comment field!

To summarize:

The Old Testament does contain prohibitions against homosexuality (as does one of the apostles). But the surrounding verses also contains prohibitions against shirts of two fabrics and various foodstuffs. Yet many Christians who shaer your opinion cite the “homosexuality is an abomination” verse with great and fervent passion, in Internet forums, television, radio, and every other medium, while utterly ignoring the surrounding verses. I don’t see any of them abstaining from hamburgers, shrimp (equally an “abomination”), or cotton-polyester blends. It’s hypocritical: if a faction of Christians want to advocate for the position that every single word of the Bible is true and must be followed with no interpretation or adjustment for the time or place in which those individuals lived … then that faction should indeed act as if, indeed, every single word of the Bible is true, and not be selective about what they follow.

You believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. That is something I do not believe in, but let us assume for the following that he was God’s Son as you believe:

• Jesus taught that it was important for Christians — above all other commandments — to love your neighbor (Mark 12:31).

• Jesus preached in his Sermon on the Mount that if you are offended by an “evil person” (His words) (struck on the cheek, sued for your tunic, forced to go a mile), you present the other cheek for offense as well (present the other cheek, give him your tunic AND cloak, go two miles) — not take vengeance or make judgment on the offense (Matthew 5:38-42). The scripture does NOT read, “Resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, slug his nether regions. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, rip their tunic asunder from their body and push them to the dirt. If someone forces you to go one mile, do not go one inch with a sinner. Take from those evil who ask you, and turn away from those evil who want to borrow from you.”

• God in Romans 12:19 says “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord” (emphasis added), and in Deuteronomy 22:35, He says≤ “To me belongeth vengeance and recompence.” Jesus, in the passage of John you cited, very clearly states that he who is without sin is fit to be in judgment of the sinner before them (cast the first stone). Who is He without sin? In Christian theology, it is God, and it is Jesus. It is very clear that if you are Christian, God does not have in mind as your role as a Christian to judge other people. He very specifically tells you in at least three specific ares of the Bible that it is specifically NOT your job, but His. By continuing to do so anyway, you are acting against His explicitly stated wishes.

• So what does God want you to be doing as a Christian? What’s your mission? Jesus tells a parable set at Judgment Day. When the masses appear before God, the sole criteria which God uses to separate the “sheep” and the “goats” is whether the least among you was hungred, and ye gave them meat: the least among you were thirsty, and ye gave them drink: the least among you were strangers, and ye took them in: naked, and ye clothed them: the least among you were sick, and ye visited them: the least among you were in prison, and ye came unto them (Matthew 25:31-46). You are to be giving food, water, clothing, shelter to the hungry, and ministering to the sick and the imprisoned. That is God’s mission for Christians, in his own words. It’s not to accumulate wealth (see Matthew 19:24) or to sit in judgment (see previous).

I don’t believe Jesus was divine, but I do believe that he had some great ideas that are radical even in today’s world. But I further believe that those ideas are which are mostly ignored by modern-day Christianity as being far too “inconvenient” for their daily lives. After all, to expect a Christian family to not take offense at those who would offend them, to minister to the poor and hungry, and to very specifically not accumulate wealth … good grief, we couldn’t ask congregants to do that , could we?

God does not say that the most important function that Christians need to do on earth is to sit in judgment of homosexuals, atheists, and agnostics, to openly condemn their sin, to pluck out their eye, to not turn the other cheek. He in fact says the opposite. He tell Christians it’s not humanity’s place to judge but His. Humanity is to love each other and to make sure that none go hungry, thirsty, or ill, or without clothes or shelter.

That’s obviously not what you’re doing with your time here at this blog entry, Sandy.